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	<title>Comments on: Our Day in Court : Part Three</title>
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	<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/</link>
	<description>The Universe, the Internet, and Academic Life</description>
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		<title>By: Judge Willis Reports &#171; The e-Astronomer</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5409</link>
		<dc:creator>Judge Willis Reports &#171; The e-Astronomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5409</guid>
		<description>[...] Budget Allocations. Paul Crowther has all sorts of details, and my own reports of the hearings are here, here, and here . Well &#8230; they have finally completed their deliberations and published a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Budget Allocations. Paul Crowther has all sorts of details, and my own reports of the hearings are here, here, and here . Well &#8230; they have finally completed their deliberations and published a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: CC</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5108</link>
		<dc:creator>CC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 12:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5108</guid>
		<description>I suspect that one of the underlying problems is that committees always make &quot;safe&quot; decisions.  That means Peer Review is inherently conservative and consensus-based, whereas step advances require vision.  That means inevitable conflict between Council management and the consultation process;  nobody wants to Administer science - the only reason for going for those jobs is to try to Change things, and yet trying to implement ideas through a set of committees full of people with vested interests is impossible.  (Lots of respect for all concerned - everybody tries to be impartial, but as has been pointed out, turkeys don&#039;t vote for Christmas.)
I fully agree with the concern about centralisation of physics facilities, though.  A good argument for Regional Government, subsidiarity and all that stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that one of the underlying problems is that committees always make &#8220;safe&#8221; decisions.  That means Peer Review is inherently conservative and consensus-based, whereas step advances require vision.  That means inevitable conflict between Council management and the consultation process;  nobody wants to Administer science &#8211; the only reason for going for those jobs is to try to Change things, and yet trying to implement ideas through a set of committees full of people with vested interests is impossible.  (Lots of respect for all concerned &#8211; everybody tries to be impartial, but as has been pointed out, turkeys don&#8217;t vote for Christmas.)<br />
I fully agree with the concern about centralisation of physics facilities, though.  A good argument for Regional Government, subsidiarity and all that stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: andyxl</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5095</link>
		<dc:creator>andyxl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5095</guid>
		<description>Dear very anonymous - this is exactly the sort of question that should be raised in Wakeham. There is a lot to be said for separating delivery from policy and funding. In the US there are several different models. Stanford runs SLAC under contract from DOE; but FermiLab is not run directly by U.Chicago but through URA. Ground based telescopes are run by AURA, which is an independent not for a profit corporation. Universities are &quot;members&quot; but don&#039;t own it. On the other hand Goddard is a simple NASA establishment. Likewise DL, ATC and RAL could continue as STFC establishments, but stay behind the Holdaway &quot;Chinese Wall&quot;. I could imagine any of these working. but to be fair to Oxford it would be very very scary taking over RAL. Imagine the redundancy risk, let alone decomissioning costs...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear very anonymous &#8211; this is exactly the sort of question that should be raised in Wakeham. There is a lot to be said for separating delivery from policy and funding. In the US there are several different models. Stanford runs SLAC under contract from DOE; but FermiLab is not run directly by U.Chicago but through URA. Ground based telescopes are run by AURA, which is an independent not for a profit corporation. Universities are &#8220;members&#8221; but don&#8217;t own it. On the other hand Goddard is a simple NASA establishment. Likewise DL, ATC and RAL could continue as STFC establishments, but stay behind the Holdaway &#8220;Chinese Wall&#8221;. I could imagine any of these working. but to be fair to Oxford it would be very very scary taking over RAL. Imagine the redundancy risk, let alone decomissioning costs&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Very anonymous physicist</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5094</link>
		<dc:creator>Very anonymous physicist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 16:59:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5094</guid>
		<description>Yes, i agree the evidence is circumstantial. 

Perhaps it would be best to make the links explicit. I.e. Have Oxford manage RAL, Liverpool + Manchester + Lancaster run DL and Edinburgh (+ SUPA?) run ATC. Then each would be independent and bid for funds on an equal basis. The biggest difficulty i can see is that the money to run facilities needs some sort of ring fence. Also running facilities doesn&#039;t sit at all with the RAE judged allocation of funds. Many technicians are required to build and run &quot;big bits of kit&quot;. They can&#039;t all write peer-reviewed publications - it isn&#039;t their job.
The US labs seem to manage though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, i agree the evidence is circumstantial. </p>
<p>Perhaps it would be best to make the links explicit. I.e. Have Oxford manage RAL, Liverpool + Manchester + Lancaster run DL and Edinburgh (+ SUPA?) run ATC. Then each would be independent and bid for funds on an equal basis. The biggest difficulty i can see is that the money to run facilities needs some sort of ring fence. Also running facilities doesn&#8217;t sit at all with the RAE judged allocation of funds. Many technicians are required to build and run &#8220;big bits of kit&#8221;. They can&#8217;t all write peer-reviewed publications &#8211; it isn&#8217;t their job.<br />
The US labs seem to manage though.</p>
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		<title>By: andyxl</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5093</link>
		<dc:creator>andyxl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5093</guid>
		<description>Dear Very Anonymous - fascinating stuff but no demonstrated link with Oxford University.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Very Anonymous &#8211; fascinating stuff but no demonstrated link with Oxford University.</p>
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		<title>By: Very Anonymous Physicist</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5092</link>
		<dc:creator>Very Anonymous Physicist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 13:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5092</guid>
		<description>Andy - It&#039;s a Big Government Lab that just happens to be right next to Oxford. Surely you agree that Oxford has disproportionate political influence.

Paranoid?! Absolutely not. Let&#039;s look at the facts:

1. Diamond - Designed at Daresbury using SRS experience under the assumption it would be built at Daresbury, the only natural site. Diamond IS over budget (the original Daresbury budget). This is because staff costs are 15% higher at RAL (cost of living) and Daresbury is much more geologically stable. Tens of millions extra were spent on piles because Thames Valley clay is softer than Cheshire Ridge sandstone. The original siting report concluded Daresbury was by far the best choice. This report was then systematically suppressed by CLRC management at RAL and never published. They commissioned another report and put placemen on the panel to ensure that they got the desired answer the second time, i.e. site at RAL.  This is not paranoia, it is fact.
2. 4GLS - The world&#039;s most ambitious light source proposal. Designed by Daresbury under very close international peer review. These peers successfully circumvented by STFC in the so-called &quot;Light Source Review&quot;. This was a cabal of 4 placemen who are not experts in FEL based light sources. These are the people Chattopadhyay meant when he said that &quot;the reviewers were of a lower standing than the people they reviewed&quot; (Phil Willis then reminded him about our wonderful libel laws... so democratic, eh). This review was then used to cancel 4GLS, which was according to a senior RAL person &quot;seen as a sop to Daresbury&quot;.
3. Next Light Source Project - A &quot;fresh start&quot;, drawing a line under 4GLS. But the proposal must be ready for submission to LFCF in 15 months! The new project leader says himself it must therefore be heavily based on the work done for 4GLS. But the Daresbury management have been jettisoned and replaced with Diamond and CLF people.
4. Manipulation of SRS redundancies - 110 has been the number since 2005. Then, last month this has mysteriously increased to 180. Ostensibly, nothing to do with the CSR.
5. Colin Whitehouse - the man who is &quot;supposed&quot; to be look after Daresbury&#039;s interests. Last week he tells an influential parliamentary committee that his vision of Government science facilities is of a &quot;one stop shop&quot;. Where is that one stop, Edinburgh, Daresbury? Every other country rejects such a policy, why, because they see the benefits of spreading the economic benefits.

So, are you all ready for the almighty bunfight after tomorrow&#039;s announcement. That&#039;s when it will get really nasty. 
Andy, you&#039;re not the only one who&#039;s pig sick of this farce. Maybe I should take Keith&#039;s advice and go and be a stockbroker instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy &#8211; It&#8217;s a Big Government Lab that just happens to be right next to Oxford. Surely you agree that Oxford has disproportionate political influence.</p>
<p>Paranoid?! Absolutely not. Let&#8217;s look at the facts:</p>
<p>1. Diamond &#8211; Designed at Daresbury using SRS experience under the assumption it would be built at Daresbury, the only natural site. Diamond IS over budget (the original Daresbury budget). This is because staff costs are 15% higher at RAL (cost of living) and Daresbury is much more geologically stable. Tens of millions extra were spent on piles because Thames Valley clay is softer than Cheshire Ridge sandstone. The original siting report concluded Daresbury was by far the best choice. This report was then systematically suppressed by CLRC management at RAL and never published. They commissioned another report and put placemen on the panel to ensure that they got the desired answer the second time, i.e. site at RAL.  This is not paranoia, it is fact.<br />
2. 4GLS &#8211; The world&#8217;s most ambitious light source proposal. Designed by Daresbury under very close international peer review. These peers successfully circumvented by STFC in the so-called &#8220;Light Source Review&#8221;. This was a cabal of 4 placemen who are not experts in FEL based light sources. These are the people Chattopadhyay meant when he said that &#8220;the reviewers were of a lower standing than the people they reviewed&#8221; (Phil Willis then reminded him about our wonderful libel laws&#8230; so democratic, eh). This review was then used to cancel 4GLS, which was according to a senior RAL person &#8220;seen as a sop to Daresbury&#8221;.<br />
3. Next Light Source Project &#8211; A &#8220;fresh start&#8221;, drawing a line under 4GLS. But the proposal must be ready for submission to LFCF in 15 months! The new project leader says himself it must therefore be heavily based on the work done for 4GLS. But the Daresbury management have been jettisoned and replaced with Diamond and CLF people.<br />
4. Manipulation of SRS redundancies &#8211; 110 has been the number since 2005. Then, last month this has mysteriously increased to 180. Ostensibly, nothing to do with the CSR.<br />
5. Colin Whitehouse &#8211; the man who is &#8220;supposed&#8221; to be look after Daresbury&#8217;s interests. Last week he tells an influential parliamentary committee that his vision of Government science facilities is of a &#8220;one stop shop&#8221;. Where is that one stop, Edinburgh, Daresbury? Every other country rejects such a policy, why, because they see the benefits of spreading the economic benefits.</p>
<p>So, are you all ready for the almighty bunfight after tomorrow&#8217;s announcement. That&#8217;s when it will get really nasty.<br />
Andy, you&#8217;re not the only one who&#8217;s pig sick of this farce. Maybe I should take Keith&#8217;s advice and go and be a stockbroker instead.</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5089</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 21:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5089</guid>
		<description>I meant Swindon, I had forgotten Chilbolton, though I think it was mentioned in the enquiry session.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant Swindon, I had forgotten Chilbolton, though I think it was mentioned in the enquiry session.</p>
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		<title>By: andyxl</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5087</link>
		<dc:creator>andyxl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 19:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5087</guid>
		<description>Do you mean Swindon, or Chilbolton ???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you mean Swindon, or Chilbolton ???</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5086</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 18:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5086</guid>
		<description>There is one place notable by its absence from that list as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is one place notable by its absence from that list as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/our-day-in-court-part-three/#comment-5085</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 17:51:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=178#comment-5085</guid>
		<description>When asked about the division of cuts between Daresbury, Harwell and ATC, Keith discussed only Daresbury and Harwell.   What is your interpretation of this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When asked about the division of cuts between Daresbury, Harwell and ATC, Keith discussed only Daresbury and Harwell.   What is your interpretation of this?</p>
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