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	<title>Comments on: Gordon&#8217;s Final Word</title>
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	<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/</link>
	<description>The Universe, the Internet, and Academic Life</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Merrifield</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5357</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Merrifield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5357</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I mistyped the quite from the letter from Peasron, which actually matches the Government response even more closely.  What is said was
&lt;blockquote&gt;
However, the research community will continue to have access to a range of world-class facilities, including CERN and the European Southern Observatory, as well as ESRF and ILL, and programmes of the European Space Agency. Membership of these international organisations is increasingly expensive, but STFC believes continuing access to the facilities they provide is a priority and is crucial to the delivery of its science strategy. Major new facilities such as Diamond and the ISIS Second Target Station will also provide opportunities for exciting scientific research.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I mistyped the quite from the letter from Peasron, which actually matches the Government response even more closely.  What is said was</p>
<blockquote><p>
However, the research community will continue to have access to a range of world-class facilities, including CERN and the European Southern Observatory, as well as ESRF and ILL, and programmes of the European Space Agency. Membership of these international organisations is increasingly expensive, but STFC believes continuing access to the facilities they provide is a priority and is crucial to the delivery of its science strategy. Major new facilities such as Diamond and the ISIS Second Target Station will also provide opportunities for exciting scientific research.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Michael Merrifield</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5352</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Merrifield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5352</guid>
		<description>Whatever.  Anyway, here&#039;s a more interesting thing.  Part of the Government response reads as follows:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
The UK research community will continue to be able to carry out international research, through access to a range of world-class facilities, including CERN, as well as the European Southern Observatory, ESRF and ILL, and programmes of the European Space Agency. Major new facilities in the UK such as Diamond and the ISIS Second Target Station will also provide opportunities for world-leading scientific research.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And here&#039;s a quote from a letter from Ian Pearson to my local MP dated March 12th: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;
However, the research community will continue to have access to a range of wrold-class facilities, including CERN and the European Southern Observatory, and programmes of the European Space Agency.  Membership of these international organisations is increasingly expensive, but STFC believes continuing access to the facilities they provide is a priority and is crucial to the delivery of its science strategy.  Major new facilities such as Diamond and the ISIS Second Target Station will also provide opportunities for exciting scientific research.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
So, demonstrably, the Government&#039;s involved at least a degree of cut-and-paste from another significantly-older document, and I still believe that STFC is the only plausible source for such a technically-heavy briefing.  It is also interesting that the Government chose to omit from its response the sentence about STFC&#039;s view as to the importance of international subscriptions.  Perhaps it was just a matter of the available space (and these days in STFC most things seem to be to do with space).  Perhaps the Government does not want to appear too explicitly committed to continuing with all its international subscriptions.  Or perhaps it was that this sentence was too obviously reproducing STFC&#039;s views rather than appearing to be a higher-level policy.  I have my own opinions, but I don&#039;t want to risk further confusing anyone by expressing them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whatever.  Anyway, here&#8217;s a more interesting thing.  Part of the Government response reads as follows:</p>
<blockquote><p>
The UK research community will continue to be able to carry out international research, through access to a range of world-class facilities, including CERN, as well as the European Southern Observatory, ESRF and ILL, and programmes of the European Space Agency. Major new facilities in the UK such as Diamond and the ISIS Second Target Station will also provide opportunities for world-leading scientific research.
</p></blockquote>
<p>And here&#8217;s a quote from a letter from Ian Pearson to my local MP dated March 12th: </p>
<blockquote><p>
However, the research community will continue to have access to a range of wrold-class facilities, including CERN and the European Southern Observatory, and programmes of the European Space Agency.  Membership of these international organisations is increasingly expensive, but STFC believes continuing access to the facilities they provide is a priority and is crucial to the delivery of its science strategy.  Major new facilities such as Diamond and the ISIS Second Target Station will also provide opportunities for exciting scientific research.
</p></blockquote>
<p>So, demonstrably, the Government&#8217;s involved at least a degree of cut-and-paste from another significantly-older document, and I still believe that STFC is the only plausible source for such a technically-heavy briefing.  It is also interesting that the Government chose to omit from its response the sentence about STFC&#8217;s view as to the importance of international subscriptions.  Perhaps it was just a matter of the available space (and these days in STFC most things seem to be to do with space).  Perhaps the Government does not want to appear too explicitly committed to continuing with all its international subscriptions.  Or perhaps it was that this sentence was too obviously reproducing STFC&#8217;s views rather than appearing to be a higher-level policy.  I have my own opinions, but I don&#8217;t want to risk further confusing anyone by expressing them.</p>
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		<title>By: andyxl</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5351</link>
		<dc:creator>andyxl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 09:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5351</guid>
		<description>I guess wordpress.com don&#039;t know about British Summer Time....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess wordpress.com don&#8217;t know about British Summer Time&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carter</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5350</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5350</guid>
		<description>Andy your clock is an hour wrong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy your clock is an hour wrong!</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5349</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5349</guid>
		<description>Mike, not all of us feel in a position to be open on these pages but nonetheless feel that we can add to the debate. When you say at the end of your earlier piece “it was” rather than “I think it was” , I think a correction is in order and you could read “it wasn’t” into that correction if you wanted to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, not all of us feel in a position to be open on these pages but nonetheless feel that we can add to the debate. When you say at the end of your earlier piece “it was” rather than “I think it was” , I think a correction is in order and you could read “it wasn’t” into that correction if you wanted to.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carter</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5348</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5348</guid>
		<description>Maybe it was DIUS then Mike. My understanding is that a limited amount of GTC time is available through ESO, for two years only and earmarked for large collaborations. Spaniards are too smart to be giving away whole telescopes as part of their ESO fee. What of Subaru? There is a time swap with Gemini, are we selling 50% of this? If I was a potential buyer of the UK Gemini time I would be inclined to drive a hard bargain. Is there GTO time for the institutes involved in FMOS? This could hardly be construed as UK access yhough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it was DIUS then Mike. My understanding is that a limited amount of GTC time is available through ESO, for two years only and earmarked for large collaborations. Spaniards are too smart to be giving away whole telescopes as part of their ESO fee. What of Subaru? There is a time swap with Gemini, are we selling 50% of this? If I was a potential buyer of the UK Gemini time I would be inclined to drive a hard bargain. Is there GTO time for the institutes involved in FMOS? This could hardly be construed as UK access yhough.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Merrifield</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5347</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Merrifield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5347</guid>
		<description>I (perhaps unwisely) assumed that anyone reading this blog was intelligent enough to realize that when someone posts a comment they are expressing their own view rather than revealing any deeper truth.  I could have liberally scattered around &quot;in my humble opinions&quot; and the like, but, as I said, I had assumed that others would take them as read.  

Personally, I would have thought it was self evident that no-one within DIUS or even higher up in RCUK would know the ins and outs of GranTeCan and Subaru, and that such information must have been quoted fairly directly from the STFC briefing on the subject.   I also think it unlikely that STFC would have provided such briefing without taking the opportunity of a ministerial and even prime ministerial audience to editorialize about their own faultless position, and, perhaps unsurprisingly, much of this has made its way into the official response.  I am happy to stand corrected by a more authoritative view, but such authority is very unlikely to come from someone who conceals their identity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I (perhaps unwisely) assumed that anyone reading this blog was intelligent enough to realize that when someone posts a comment they are expressing their own view rather than revealing any deeper truth.  I could have liberally scattered around &#8220;in my humble opinions&#8221; and the like, but, as I said, I had assumed that others would take them as read.  </p>
<p>Personally, I would have thought it was self evident that no-one within DIUS or even higher up in RCUK would know the ins and outs of GranTeCan and Subaru, and that such information must have been quoted fairly directly from the STFC briefing on the subject.   I also think it unlikely that STFC would have provided such briefing without taking the opportunity of a ministerial and even prime ministerial audience to editorialize about their own faultless position, and, perhaps unsurprisingly, much of this has made its way into the official response.  I am happy to stand corrected by a more authoritative view, but such authority is very unlikely to come from someone who conceals their identity.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Carter</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5346</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Carter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5346</guid>
		<description>I think its a mixture, paragraphs 1-4 read to me like the DGRC, paragraphs 5-8 are more detailed and could only have come from within  the STFC council or executive, the last three probably appended by one of the ministers to make it sound conciliatory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think its a mixture, paragraphs 1-4 read to me like the DGRC, paragraphs 5-8 are more detailed and could only have come from within  the STFC council or executive, the last three probably appended by one of the ministers to make it sound conciliatory.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5345</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5345</guid>
		<description>A common feature on these pages in the tendency by some to say that something is so when what they mean is that they think it is so. Thinking something to be true does not make it true. Mike’s last contribution is an example of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A common feature on these pages in the tendency by some to say that something is so when what they mean is that they think it is so. Thinking something to be true does not make it true. Mike’s last contribution is an example of this.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Merrifield</title>
		<link>http://andyxl.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/gordons-final-word/#comment-5344</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Merrifield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andyxl.wordpress.com/?p=191#comment-5344</guid>
		<description>Higher up the scale?  So, where do you think it came from?  From the PM?  From John Denham?  And if it did, where do you think he acquired his detailed knowledge of the ownership of Jodrell Bank, the names of 8-metre telescopes around the World to which we may or may not have access, and the magnitude of cuts in US investments in the ILC?  I hate to break this to you, but we really do not matter that much, and the details of astronomy and particle physics&#039; woes are not sufficiently at the finger tips of the minister or his office to draft such a response.  Instead, he does what a government minister will always do: he gets the civil servants running the show to write him a brief.  In this case, the civil servants who know are those who work for STFC, which is why the &quot;Prime Minister&#039;s&quot; response reads like it was written by STFC - it was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Higher up the scale?  So, where do you think it came from?  From the PM?  From John Denham?  And if it did, where do you think he acquired his detailed knowledge of the ownership of Jodrell Bank, the names of 8-metre telescopes around the World to which we may or may not have access, and the magnitude of cuts in US investments in the ILC?  I hate to break this to you, but we really do not matter that much, and the details of astronomy and particle physics&#8217; woes are not sufficiently at the finger tips of the minister or his office to draft such a response.  Instead, he does what a government minister will always do: he gets the civil servants running the show to write him a brief.  In this case, the civil servants who know are those who work for STFC, which is why the &#8220;Prime Minister&#8217;s&#8221; response reads like it was written by STFC &#8211; it was.</p>
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